| Imperial Senate Debate: Should There Be An Emperor? - Xaexar, Coranel, Joey C, VIZ Siterath Goersase and DRC Demerzel
Demerzel (Debate Judge):
Non-Participants please post only after the rebuttals
Liberal Party Formal Debate #1
Topic: A new Emperor should be appointed to lead the Galactic Empire.
Judges: PL Demerzel, DPL Siterath, DCH Rizzen 'Plague' Pharn
Participants: Xaexar, Coranel, Xizor, Joey C
Proposition: Xaexar, Xizor
Opposition: Coranel, Joey C
Ground rules:
1.The debate shall take place over the Senate Floor message board or the Imperial Senate one.
2.Each speaker is only allowed 1 post and a later rebuttal. Each post would need to be a minimum of 500 words, given that a in 3 minutes you can speak far more words.
3.Each post will be considered as the entire case which the speaker wishes to present, and any further posts made by a speaker will not be taken into account.
4.A period of two days will be given for the next speaker to post his speech, following the conclusion of the speech by the previous speaker. Failure to do so would lead to a forfeit of the ability of the speaker to post in the debate.
5.As this is a competition, Adamantine Seals will be awarded accordingly, and to the whole team.
6.Teams will be judged on levels of co-ordination, coherence in argument and quality of argument.
7.Be respectful to the opposing side.
8.Non-speakers will be allowed to comment after the conclusion of the rebuttals.
9.The judges decision is final.
At randomn I have decided to allow the proposition to go first, and so the order of the speakers are as follows:
1st speaker: Xaexar
2nd speaker: Coranel
3rd speaker: Xizor
4th speaker: Joey C
Rebuttals would follow in the same order.
Final note to participants: Each speaker is allowed 24 hours to make his post following the previous speaker. The first speaker has until Friday 7 Feb to post his argument.
Note to judges:
1.Any irrelevant posts may be deleted from the thread. (To Plague)
2.Score sheet (Submit scores after each speaker, send them to me)
Content: /10
Coherence: /10
Teamwork: /10
Comments:
Xaexar (Debate Participant; 1st Speaker; Proposition):
The dark side energies flowing through Palpatine's body were so intense, that they ravaged his mortal frame. The very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him.
To counter the dark side's consumption, Palpatine turned to a bizarre combination of technology and Sith magic. Palpatine used Spaarti cloning cylinders to create a store of younger bodies, and employed an ancient Sith technique to transfer his consciousness into a waiting clone. Thus, Palpatine could avoid death indefinitely -- as long as his supply of clones remained intact. Palpatine constructed a secret throne-world deep within the galaxy's core, on a shadowy world called Byss. Here, he kept his clones safe, protected by a loyal cadre of Dark Side Adepts. Palpatine also had a string of loyal, deadly agents referred to as his "Hands." Mara Jade at the Battle of Endor, Palpatine found himself facing death yet again. Betrayed by Vader, Palpatine's body was destroyed aboard the second Death Star. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Palpatine remained sequestered at Byss while he rebuilt his strength, and his Empire.
Palpatine's rule was so absolute that his apparent death at Endor fragmented the Empire. One warlord who succeeded where imitators failed was Grand Admiral Thrawn, the only non-human to hold that rank. Spurred on by Thrawn's victories, the remaining Inner Circle of Imperial warlords staged a devastating attack on Coruscant. Whereas Thrawn sought to take the capital world intact, these Imperials attacked without compunction. It was then that the resurrected Palpatine struck. Using his dark powers to invoke a Force storm of great magnitude, Palpatine swept Jedi Master Luke Skywalker to Byss. Faced with an immortal enemy, Skywalker did the unthinkable -- in order to defeat the dark side from within, Skywalker knelt before Palpatine, and declared himself his new apprentice. In these dark times, it seemed the Emperor had finally won. Unabated, the Emperor continued his scourge. Armed with an incredible new superweapon, the Galaxy Gun, Palpatine forced numerous New Republic worlds to capitulate to Imperial rule. Despite his growing Empire, Palpatine was again growing frail. His clones were failing him. Palpatine targeted Leia's newborn son, Anakin Solo, as the next receptacle for his dark spirit. Before his soul could enter Anakin's body, Palpatine was intercepted by a newfound Jedi, Empatojayos Brand. Cut off from a host body, Palpatine's essence dissipated, to be consumed by the madness that is the dark side.
Then there is Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Grand Admiral Thrawn was not completely human and he was the first alien ever to achieve such high ranking in the Imperial lines.
What did Thrawn achieve in the Unknown Regions?
It is not being told what Thrawn achieved in the Unknown Regions apart from claiming no less than 250 sectors! Mara concludes that the Empire probably has just a few actual colonies, but garrisons on all planets, listening posts, intelligence networks, full blown ship yards and a network of local allies. And that is just Mara's primitive conclusion!
In conclusion, and after a great deal of research and thought, I have to say that the Empire definitely needs a new emperor, so that the Empire can be lifted to it’s full capacity, and take full control of the universe, for once and for all!
Demerzel (Debate Judge):
It is my understanding that for the opposition, there are some problems, so if you're free JoeyC you may make your post as Coranel has requested to be switched to 4th speaker.
Joey C (Debate Participant; 2nd Speaker; Opposition):
Onboard the bridge of the Imperial Star Destroyer Chimaera, three men were having a heated discussion. One of these men, Grand Admiral Thrawn, arguably the most brilliant military minds in the galaxy, formed a theory that shocked the other two men in attendance. I shall quote the relevant parts of his theory.
“…Because the Emperor was dead. Didn’t you notice it Admiral? The sudden loss of co-ordination between crewmembers and ships? The loss of the Executor? The sudden TIE fighter incompetence that lead to the Death Star’s destruction. The loss of six Star Destroyers that should never have had any trouble. All of this put down to simple battle stress?”
Emperor Palpatine, according to Thrawn, used his immense Force powers to control the entire Imperial Navy. Millions of loyal Imperial men and women, completely taken over by Palpatine. Now the sheer skill of the Emperor’s manipulation made the Imperial Fleet almost unbeatable. The loss of the first Death Star at Yavin was due to Luke Skywalker’s use of the Force…something which Palpatine had predicted. But the point is that when the Emperor died at Endor, the whole of the battle fleet present at Endor was reduced to the rank of cadets! That is why the second Death Star was lost. That’s why so many Star Destroyers were lost. All due to the Emperor’s short-mindedness. Since his only concern was obtaining Skywalker to add to his Empire, he forgot that the millions of Fleet personnel that he commanded weren’t actually trained. So when he died, in reality, so did the Empire, as the Fleet could no longer be relied upon to defend the Empire, until the arrival of Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Secondly, there should not be a new Emperor because of the simple fact that it took a man as Force-powerful as Palpatine to keep the Empire as civilised as it was. A new Emperor would have to be as powerful or more, otherwise he shall have to re-instate the Senate to maintain control, thus allowing the Rebellion new powers that Palpatine eliminated when he dissolved the Senate.
On the topic of the Senate, another reason why there should be no new Emperor is that Palpatine didn’t really have that big a roll in the running of the Empire anyway. When Palpatine dissolved the Senate, he gave the regional governors (the Moffs) DIRECT control over their territories. The Emperor never had to maintain control over them, for the simple reason that Grand Moff Tarkin summed up perfectly.
“Fear, will keep the local systems in line…” Palpatine would never object to the way that the Moffs ran his Empire as long as it was being run by Moffs using the weapon Palpatine himself would have used…fear.
In conclusion, I believe that there should be no new Emperor to control the Galactic Empire, because the new Emperor could only use Palpatine’s strategies to re-instate the Empire, and that would eventually plunge the Empire back where it is now, as Palpatine never learned from his mistakes, so how can we trust someone like Palpatine to learn. Also, the Empire wasn’t really run by the Emperor, it was run by the Moffs, so the new Emperor would have to compete with them to take back the reins of the Empire, since I doubt that they would be willing to comply after years of dictating the action.
Coranel (Debate Participant; 3rd Speaker; Opposition):
Should a new Emperor be appointed to lead the Galactic Empire?
Let us look at this objectively. Yes, under the leadership of Emperor Palpatine, the Galactive Empire rose to power; many systems were under the control of the Empire, under the control of the Emperor himself.
However, there was one thing that helped the Empire rise to the heights that it rose to: the Emperor was a student of the Dark Side of The Force. Granted, Palpatine was quite a charismatic individual. However, his knowledge of the Force was the primary ingredient to the recipe known as the Galactic Empire. With his strength as a Force user, he was able to wield the Imperial Navy into a nearly unbeatable fighting force. With his death, and the loss of his abilities, the Empire crumbled.
In addition to all of this, Emperor Palpatine ruled through fear. He came to the conclusion that to make the people fear him would make them "behave" themselves. This fear gave rise to a group of rebels that nearly destroyed the Empire. However, I will cover this point later. The point here is that under the leadership of an Emperor, the Galactic Empire crumbled.
This cannot be allowed to happen again. The Galactic Empire is bigger than you. The Galactic Empire is bigger than me. The Galactic Empire is the sum of it's parts. Thousands of systems; trillions of individuals. This is what the Galactic Empire is; the fate of trillions cannot rest on the decisions that one individual makes. That is why we are here, is it not? That is why the Imperial Senate exists.
And if, Ladies and Gentlemen, if you'll recall, that under the last Emperor we had, the Empire was destroyed from within, from a group of rebels that supposedly posed no threat to the Empire. The fact that this group existing to begin with should tell you something: that the people were not happy with the Galactice Empire. That the Empire was managing it's resources, it's planets, it's people, so poorly, that a group rose up with the intention of dismantling the current government. Yet the Emperor, the Empire, did nothing. Their ego's would not allow it. And in the end, it destroyed the Empire.
And that is why an Emperor cannot be allowed to exist; one man cannot lead the Empire. One man is incapable of doing so. His ego, his ambition, his greed will ultimately cause ruin to befall the current government; the Galactic Empire, in this case.
During these times of strife with the New Republic, group of men, a committee must lead. One man must be elected by the committee that leads the Galactic Empire to take the position of Grand Admiral. That man must lead the military of the Empire. And he will report to this committee, who, together, will ensure the survivial of the Empire. The committee will not allow one man's ambitions, one man's ego, to drag down the Empire, as it once did before.
Thank you for your time, Ladies and Gentlemen.
Demerzel (Debate Judge):
Just one quick note. PAG Xizor has forfeited his participation in this Debate, and so as not to slow things down I have allowed the opposition to make a second post before the proposition again as DPL Siterath has kindly decided to stand in for the proposition. The floor is yours Siterath ;)
Siterath Goersase (Debate Participant; 4th Speaker; Proposition):
These are times of questions. The people of the galaxy, are united in one sense, a question they cannot stop asking themselves. What will become of the Empire. Some wish to see the scattered Remnant eliminated. Some wish to see the New Republic overthrown and the Empire to be reenstated.
I have not come to point out the past, but to look to the future, and to dig deeper into history as it relates to the future.
The Rebellion was not due to the lack of freedoms, but by those insane few wishing to see the Republic come back to life. They forced Palpatine to put the resources of the galaxy into the defense of the orderly galaxy from these madmen.
If there was a problem with the Emperor, it was due to who was appointed, not the position itself. The only thing the Emperor did was maintain peace, order, and security. The Rebellion spread their lies and their propoganda, bring more brainwashed fools to their cause.
Yet as I said, I am not here to argue over history, but to show you the present, and the way of the future.
We all praise the Emperor's Hammer, the largest most powerful peaceful orderly and secure group within the Imperium, yet it is within itself a military dictatorship. It is in essence an Empire, with a Fleet Commander as an Emperor. Palpatine appointed advisors and subordinate officers, just as Ronin did and continues to do. We have here a prosperity that is undying and a peace that is everlasting. We all love the Emperor's Hammer, and we all are glad that we live within this great territory. Ronin has done only good to it, and he is an Emperor unto himself.
There would be no harm in appointing an Emperor, for we basically live under one now, and could not be more prosperous. What would we have to gain you ask? The Imperium would be united and we could be strong again. Yet this would not be a strength to oppress, but to spread our prosperity. People would have the joys that we have now, the peace we have now, and it would be folly to deny it.
So now an answer to the questions.
Do we need an Emperor?
If we wish to be free and prosperous, then we most certainly do.
What will become of the Empire?
The Empire follows the Emperor. Without a new Emperor, the Empire will follow its old one, into darkness. The Non appointment of an Emperor would be a blessing for all those wishing to see the Empire fade into nothing. Now you must ask yourself, do you wish to see the Empire destroyed?
We need an Emperor.
Thank you
Demerzel (Debate Judge):
I thank all the speakers for their speeches. Rebuttals may now follow, in this order: JoeyC, Xaexar, Coranel, Siterath
JoeyC (Debate Participant; Opposition):
I would like to say first off that the proposition have made a very well-constructed debate. But I would like to delve deeper into their argument if I may.
You said that the Emperor poured the resources of a galaxy into hunting down the Rebel insurgents. However, many people know that the Emperor was never seen hunting down the Rebels. It was the Imperial Navy, under command of Darth Vader, that were fighting the Rebellion. I have yet never seen any actions taken by Palpatine personally that have helped bring the Rebellion under control, as he didn't percieve them to be a threat, no matter what anybody told him.
You also made reference to the Emperors Hammer and the fact that it is a military dictatorship. You said a few times that it is similar to the Empire of old. But in fact you have provided the perfect reason as to why there should be no Emperor. The whole reason that the Old Republic was overthrown was so that the people would be 'free of corruption' They were promised that they would have a say in the actions of the 'New Order' that Palpatine would be creating. So what I don't understand is...
Why have you likened the Empire to a militaristic dictatorship? You are consiously acknowledging that what Palpatine said about free will was a lie? That the Empire was never a free place to live? That the whole time almost all of inhabited space was under the control of the military?
If that is the case, then why do we need an Emperor, even though Ronin controls the Emperors Hammer. As I said earlier in this debate, the Moffs (BGCOM's and COM's) were in control of the Empire, with no real input from Palpatine...has much really changed?
Thank you all Ladies and Gentlemen.
Xaexar (Debate Participant; Proposition):
Well, well, well. The way I see this debate, is with the eyes of a newcomer, someone who is experiencing their first trial. But don't let this bother you, for I am one who learns quickly. I would also like to congratulate all wo have participated. Especially my colleage for this debate, Siterath Goersase.
Now, down to business. Coranel said this sometime during his speech, Joey also spoke of something like it during his speeches.
"One man must be elected by the committee that leads the Galactic Empire to take the position of Grand Admiral. That man must lead the military of the Empire. And he will report to this committee, who, together, will ensure the survivial of the Empire." My recent history may not be the best, but I am sure that that is precisely what the Galactic leaders did when the Empire was in the midst of it's rise. The problem was, that one man got too much power over the group. No, it was not the Emperor, but the leader of the committee, Grand Moff Tarkin.
Tarkin, a very smart man, new that, if he were to have the committee under his hold, then he could have the entire Empire. He gain all of this because he was the head of the committee. The rest of the group did what he said, when he said, without question, when someone did question him, he had the rest of the committee by his side.
Now onto another point.
"The fate of trillions cannot rest on the decisions that one individual makes. That is why we are here, is it not? That is why the Imperial Senate exists."
This is another point that Coranel Both made. He is contradicting himself.
The Imperial Senate does exactly that. We squabble and squabble until we can't talk, but in the end, the decision is made by the one superior inthe Senate, the Supreme Chancellor. We only represent people from our planets, our origins. We aren't the ones who amke decision for them.
All politics relies on one superiorbeing to make the decision, whether it be an Emperor, a Supreme Chancellor, a Grand Admiral, or a Squad Leader, only one being can make the decision.
In conclusion to this rebuttal I would like say. Without an Emperor, there is no Empire.
Thank you, Party Leader Demerzel, Deputy Chancellor Plague, Ladies and Gentlemen
Coranel Both (Debate Participant; Opposition):
I would like to start off by congratulating everyone who has participated in this debate. It is turning into something much more enjoyable than what I had originally anticipated.
Secondly, I'd like to correct some statements in a previous rebuttal.
xaexar wrote:
My recent history may not be the best, but I am sure that that is precisely what the Galactic leaders did when the Empire was in the midst of it's rise. The problem was, that one man got too much power over the group. No, it was not the Emperor, but the leader of the committee, Grand Moff Tarkin. Tarkin, a very smart man, new that, if he were to have the committee under his hold, then he could have the entire Empire. He gain all of this because he was the head of the committee. The rest of the group did what he said, when he said, without question, when someone did question him, he had the rest of the committee by his side.
A small correction on this; according to my information, it was the Moff's who led the various sectors of the Galactic Empire; strict borders were maintained, allowing members of the Rebel Alliance to commit acts of treason in one sector, then flee to a neighboring sector where the angered Moff would have no influence.
The Emperor (as "suggested" by Tarkin) created the position of Grand Moff. Not only would he be in charge of the Moff's, but he'd have direct influence of the borders of the sectors, to assist in detaining the traitorous rebels. In effect, the Emperor made him leader of the "council," giving him power; in effect, once again, giving one man the power to dictate how trillions would live their lives.
xaexar wrote:
The Imperial Senate does exactly that. We squabble and squabble until we can't talk, but in the end, the decision is made by the one superior inthe Senate, the Supreme Chancellor. We only represent people from our planets, our origins. We aren't the ones who amke decision for them. All politics relies on one superiorbeing to make the decision, whether it be an Emperor, a Supreme Chancellor, a Grand Admiral, or a Squad Leader, only one being can make the decision.
I believe you are mistaking the Imperial Senate with the old Republic Senate. They squabbled and squabbled, making way for Palpatine to take over, and overthrow the Republic. The Emperor's Hammer Senate, on the other hand, is slightly difficult. Just like every legislative body that has ever existed, we quibble. That is where the similarities end. Chancellor Kallath leads the Senate. When he makes a decision, he most likely confers with Deputy Chancellor Plague. To quote a line from the notes for the Entrance Exam...
Imperial University Entrance Exam Notes wrote:
If the Chancellor wishes to make changes to the Manual, he or she must have the unanimous approval of the entire High Council.
More evidence that one person, such as the Chancellor, doesn't run the Imperial Senate. The High Council runs the Imperial Senate.
The Emperor's Hammer is not run by an Emperor. It is ran by the Command Staff of the EH. The CS, led by the Grand Admiral, run this.
Thank you for your time.
Siterath Goersase (Debate Participant; Proposition):
Well I would like to thank the opposition, they made some very interesting comments. Mistaken, but interesting.
The Imperial Senate that we all here serve in, as hopefully all here know, has no true power. When we do debate and discuss, and actually reach a common ground, nothing occurs. We are under the control of Ronin. The most we can do is make reccommendations, if that. There is no power here, none at all, and to use it as an argument for not crowning an Emperor is like using some space dust as an excuse to not crown him. There is no hard case. Why you ask. Because the Empire is where we live now, under an Emperor who is not called Emperor. Title or not, he is what he is, and to deny an Emperor is to deny your own homes. You all live now in the Empire, why? This is the Rebellion of today, fighting the holder of Coruscant. Why? Because we stand by the ideals and are willing to die if we must for them, and those ideals include an Emperor, and to deny that would be to deny everything you, everything we stand for.
Going back to the opposition's earlier posts
Opposition wrote: (JoeyC)
You said that the Emperor poured the resources of a galaxy into hunting down the Rebel insurgents. However, many people know that the Emperor was never seen hunting down the Rebels. It was the Imperial Navy, under command of Darth Vader, that were fighting the Rebellion. I have yet never seen any actions taken by Palpatine personally that have helped bring the Rebellion under control, as he didn't percieve them to be a threat, no matter what anybody told him.
I find these comments almost laughable. The Galactic Empire was under the control of the Emperor, the entire Empire. Palpatine was in charge of the Navy, and he placed Lord Vader in command of Navy, on his behalf. While Vader gave the orders, Palpatine had the final word in everything. So it was indeed Palpatine's quest, and his order, that caused the hunting of these Rebels. He did take action, not only to stop the Rebellion, but to insure security and peace for all peoples.
Opposition wrote: (JoeyC)
You also made reference to the Emperors Hammer and the fact that it is a military dictatorship. You said a few times that it is similar to the Empire of old. But in fact you have provided the perfect reason as to why there should be no Emperor. The whole reason that the Old Republic was overthrown was so that the people would be 'free of corruption' They were promised that they would have a say in the actions of the 'New Order' that Palpatine would be creating. So what I don't understand is... Why have you likened the Empire to a militaristic dictatorship? You are consiously acknowledging that what Palpatine said about free will was a lie? That the Empire was never a free place to live? That the whole time almost all of inhabited space was under the control of the military?
These comments are laughable. You say that I proved that no Emperor should be appointed in my post, yet within yours you prove that one should be. Palpatine made the promise, and it fell through. I ask you now, how much say do the people of the Emperor's Hammer have? We sit in this Senate, which has no power. Your comments only cemented the likeness between the Empire and a Military Dictatorship. You also have the misconception of a Military Dictatorship. I was refering to the fact that this is the way the Emperor's Hammer is run, and failing to appoint an Emperor would not only deny the best of the best to the Galaxy, but would also seem as an attempt to destroy the Empire forever. Is this what we want? Is this what you want?
Ladies and Gentlemen. To say that we need no Emperor is to say that we need no Empire. We struggle here to keep that Empire alive. Trying to deny an Emperor and to live here, fight here, die here in the Emperor's Hammer is either hippocracy, or treason. You decide.
We need our Emperor: For the Glory of the Empire
Thank You
Demerzel (Debate Judge):
The Debate is now open to the floor while the decision on the winners are being made. Non-Liberal Party members are also allowed to do so, but as this is a formal debate, keep the language that you use, formal.
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